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PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2022 3:45 pm 
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I am looking at the Echo Royal. I think I am ready for something like that to build and definitely ready for that on my custom pedalboard. Is it true bypass? In looking over the parts I don't see how it could be, but curious if I am wrong. Are either of the other smaller delay kits true bypass?

Thanks!


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2022 6:21 pm 
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Unclesixer wrote:
I am looking at the Echo Royal. I think I am ready for something like that to build and definitely ready for that on my custom pedalboard. Is it true bypass? In looking over the parts I don't see how it could be, but curious if I am wrong. Are either of the other smaller delay kits true bypass?

Thanks!


The Echo Royal is buffered/active bypass. It's pretty similar to (although not exactly) the analog dry-through section of a DM-2. It should be fairly neutral as far as tone coloration.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2022 7:55 pm 
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The Analog Delay and Classic Delay (digital) are both true mechanical bypass. So are the Ping-Pong and Li'l Echo, but they're out of stock.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 04, 2022 8:27 am 
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Thanks, guys. I feel like the echo royal is the only delay I will ever need for the rest of my life... the smaller kits look simple enough that I should build one just for the heck of it....

I think the Royal is gonna be the next project, though....

This is gonna be exciting... right now my pedalboard still has a zoom multi-effect on it.... once I get a delay pedal built, it will join my spring reverb (my first BYOC build) and prob an EHX small stone to replace the zoom

I already have a classic fuzz, mouse, and green pony on the board for different dirty sounds... and an orange distortion that could swap-in.

Current project is modifying a crybaby to true bypass, no input buffer, foxrox output buffer, and led indicator. It has taken a while to get here, but it has been fun.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 04, 2022 9:04 am 
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Sounds like, at some point, you’re gonna need a buffer to compensate for all the pedals you got going on. There has to be some loss happening.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 04, 2022 12:39 pm 
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The Echo Royal actually has a pretty nice non-inverting JFET buffer already. The DRY OUT is essentially a line driving, high input impedance buffer pedal all in itself. The MIX OUT bypassed signal is actually more closely releated to the DM-3 than the DM-2. The DM-3 is literally just the DM-2 with the addition of a JFET input buffer, I'm assuming, because JFETs just make nicer input buffers, but also, adding another inverting buffer stage corrects the phase of the DM-2. The DM-3 bypass is pretty much the best active bypass circuit I've come across.

So the core of the Echo Royal's active buffer is a clone of the DM-3, but it's FET switching bypass is actually derived from the AD-808. This is because the Echo Royal has a true wet/dry blend and not just a wet level like the DM-2/3. This is the reason for the C14/R16 signal path and why 3 x switching FETs are required. The dry signal path at C20 is not constant because of the mix knob.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 04, 2022 6:56 pm 
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jimilee wrote:
Sounds like, at some point, you’re gonna need a buffer to compensate for all the pedals you got going on. There has to be some loss happening.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I thought a half-dozen true bypass pedals with low capacitance patch cords wouldn't need a buffer unless there was well over 20 ft of patch cord involved... maybe i am wrong... I should look into this. I do use a 10 ft cord to the board and another 10 ft cord to the amp right now because they are my only long cords with 90 deg connectors (which play nicely with my board). If i have a buffered delay pedal in there, i shouldn't have to worry about the length of the second cable... right?

I guess I need to set aside some time this weekend to A/B my bypassed clean tone and a direct clean tone...


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 04, 2022 7:01 pm 
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byoc wrote:
The Echo Royal actually has a pretty nice non-inverting JFET buffer already. The DRY OUT is essentially a line driving, high input impedance buffer pedal all in itself. The MIX OUT bypassed signal is actually more closely releated to the DM-3 than the DM-2. The DM-3 is literally just the DM-2 with the addition of a JFET input buffer, I'm assuming, because JFETs just make nicer input buffers, but also, adding another inverting buffer stage corrects the phase of the DM-2. The DM-3 bypass is pretty much the best active bypass circuit I've come across.

So the core of the Echo Royal's active buffer is a clone of the DM-3, but it's FET switching bypass is actually derived from the AD-808. This is because the Echo Royal has a true wet/dry blend and not just a wet level like the DM-2/3. This is the reason for the C14/R16 signal path and why 3 x switching FETs are required. The dry signal path at C20 is not constant because of the mix knob.


Wow, thanks for all that!


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 04, 2022 8:56 pm 
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Unclesixer wrote:
jimilee wrote:
Sounds like, at some point, you’re gonna need a buffer to compensate for all the pedals you got going on. There has to be some loss happening.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I thought a half-dozen true bypass pedals with low capacitance patch cords wouldn't need a buffer unless there was well over 20 ft of patch cord involved... maybe i am wrong... I should look into this. I do use a 10 ft cord to the board and another 10 ft cord to the amp right now because they are my only long cords with 90 deg connectors (which play nicely with my board). If i have a buffered delay pedal in there, i shouldn't have to worry about the length of the second cable... right?

I guess I need to set aside some time this weekend to A/B my bypassed clean tone and a direct clean tone...
That’s been my experience. One night at rehearsal, I didn’t want to mess with my pedal oars, and I was blown away by the difference in sound. That’s when I started looking at external buffers.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 06, 2022 10:01 pm 
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So I had a chance today to line up 7 true bypass pedals... my modified crybaby, byoc fuzz, byoc mouse, byoc green pony, byoc orange dist, byoc spring reverb, and alexander jubilee. All with short patch cords and a 10 ft cord in and 10ft cord out. With all the pedals off, there was some tone loss when I compared to plugging direct to the amp with 1 10 ft cable. Enough that I was surprised.

I tried again with the first four pedals only and there was only the tiniest bit of tone loss, definitely not enough to worry about IMO. And, with the guys I play with, there will almost always be one dirt pedal on early in the chain... and any activated pedal should buffer the signal, right?

I would have liked to try some other combinations, but there was too much other stuff going on today and too much noise to worry about more and more trials.

Eventually when I build the delay, that will have buffered bypass (and, until then, I will have the zoom multi effect at the end of my chain which I am sure is always buffering the signal there). I could also add a buffer after the dirt pedals and before the mod/delay/verb when I get to that point if it seems like I need it.

Thanks for bringing this up, it really wasn't on my radar at all and now I am just going to try to keep this all in mind as I add the last few pedals to my board.

jimilee wrote:
Unclesixer wrote:
jimilee wrote:
Sounds like, at some point, you’re gonna need a buffer to compensate for all the pedals you got going on. There has to be some loss happening.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I thought a half-dozen true bypass pedals with low capacitance patch cords wouldn't need a buffer unless there was well over 20 ft of patch cord involved... maybe i am wrong... I should look into this. I do use a 10 ft cord to the board and another 10 ft cord to the amp right now because they are my only long cords with 90 deg connectors (which play nicely with my board). If i have a buffered delay pedal in there, i shouldn't have to worry about the length of the second cable... right?

I guess I need to set aside some time this weekend to A/B my bypassed clean tone and a direct clean tone...
That’s been my experience. One night at rehearsal, I didn’t want to mess with my pedal oars, and I was blown away by the difference in sound. That’s when I started looking at external buffers.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 07, 2022 9:29 am 
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Unclesixer wrote:
So I had a chance today to line up 7 true bypass pedals... my modified crybaby, byoc fuzz, byoc mouse, byoc green pony, byoc orange dist, byoc spring reverb, and alexander jubilee. All with short patch cords and a 10 ft cord in and 10ft cord out. With all the pedals off, there was some tone loss when I compared to plugging direct to the amp with 1 10 ft cable. Enough that I was surprised.

I tried again with the first four pedals only and there was only the tiniest bit of tone loss, definitely not enough to worry about IMO. And, with the guys I play with, there will almost always be one dirt pedal on early in the chain... and any activated pedal should buffer the signal, right?

I would have liked to try some other combinations, but there was too much other stuff going on today and too much noise to worry about more and more trials.

Eventually when I build the delay, that will have buffered bypass (and, until then, I will have the zoom multi effect at the end of my chain which I am sure is always buffering the signal there). I could also add a buffer after the dirt pedals and before the mod/delay/verb when I get to that point if it seems like I need it.

Thanks for bringing this up, it really wasn't on my radar at all and now I am just going to try to keep this all in mind as I add the last few pedals to my board.

jimilee wrote:
Unclesixer wrote:
I thought a half-dozen true bypass pedals with low capacitance patch cords wouldn't need a buffer unless there was well over 20 ft of patch cord involved... maybe i am wrong... I should look into this. I do use a 10 ft cord to the board and another 10 ft cord to the amp right now because they are my only long cords with 90 deg connectors (which play nicely with my board). If i have a buffered delay pedal in there, i shouldn't have to worry about the length of the second cable... right?

I guess I need to set aside some time this weekend to A/B my bypassed clean tone and a direct clean tone...
That’s been my experience. One night at rehearsal, I didn’t want to mess with my pedal oars, and I was blown away by the difference in sound. That’s when I started looking at external buffers.

Hey sure, I was blown away in the difference in my sound as well. I built a couple of buffer to put early in the chain. One is in a mints tin and the other in a round string eas (sp?) tin.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 08, 2022 1:26 pm 
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One more question:

Is there a resistor/capacitor mod that could make the wet signal a little more "lowfi"... something that might reduce the high freq and maybe just a bit of lows? I would be willing to install some sockets and experiment a little bit if I know where to start.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 09, 2022 1:50 pm 
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Q2, 3, and 4 are all active low pass filters. You can use google and find a calculator if you want to figure out a specific frequency, but if you just want cut more highs, then just make any one or more of the caps that go to ground (e.g., C10, 12, 18, 19, or 21) a larger value. There are no high pass filters to modify to cut more bass, but if you make C13 smaller, that should reduce some lows. You probably need to make it .022uF or smaller to notice anything.

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