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 Post subject: 5 knob won't come alive
PostPosted: Mon Apr 24, 2017 5:58 pm 
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Hi, just built a 5 knob, my first major build. However, it won't come alive. No sound, no LED. (Have turned the trimpot around, no change).
The ONLY time it displayed any sign if life was when I connected it before my MXR Distortion+, but then it would only work with the distortion switched on, and very poorly at that. The moment I switched off the dist it died again.

Tried both 9 and 18V to no avail. Have measured polarity and adapter output. The only thing I have altered is that I chose to omit the battery connector, since I never use batteries with my pedals.
I know the two red cables from the DC input jack are switched on these images... that was just a last-ditch attempt to see if I had confused them after all; they're only temoprarily soldered, too, because of that.

Hope you can make sense of my pics. Thanks in advance.


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File comment: Pots have been deliberately tilted up a bit so as to eliminate all suspicions of them shorting out against the PCB.
IMG_3519.JPG
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 25, 2017 8:52 am 
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Slight update: Fixed a bad soldering on the LED, and was able to get some sort of sound out of it after that, but it's extremely distorted and noisy and only works on 18V. When i run it on 9V and switch to bypass, it just produces some sort of static. Any thoughts on what might be wrong?


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 25, 2017 4:12 pm 
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Is your LED working now? Looks like your footswitch header isn't seated correctly in that pic.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 26, 2017 1:36 am 
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Yes, the LED is working now at least :-) The header is all properly connected, I think, even if it isn't perfectly straight.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 26, 2017 5:43 pm 
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What happens if you turn the blend knob all the way dry?

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 28, 2017 6:08 am 
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Actually, it works now. Turns out the fault was that even though I had used the +18VDC supply for this pedal only, that current had somehow fried some of the other pedals that were in the same signal chain; hence the lack of sound. It's true, they were working before I started building this one, and now four of them are dead at the same time.

I think that might be a problem that you might want to look into as far as your building instructions go. After all, some pedals without true bypass do share the same voltage when their respective signal cables are connected, that's quite common knowledge. Apparently there is no safeguarding against overloading other pedals in the chain when this one is run on 18 volts.

Great pedal otherwise, quite an improvement to what I used to use and all that, but having it kill off other pedals did not produce an immediate sense of enthusiasm in me, sorry.

Have a great weekend!


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 28, 2017 12:54 pm 
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Quote:
I think that might be a problem that you might want to look into as far as your building instructions go. After all, some pedals without true bypass do share the same voltage when their respective signal cables are connected, that's quite common knowledge. Apparently there is no safeguarding against overloading other pedals in the chain when this one is run on 18 volts.


Just to clarify for others that may be reading this thread: the 5 knob compressor running at 18v will not cause any damage whatsoever to other pedals in the signal chain regardless of switching topology. Applying 18v to power a 9v effect may or may not damage that effect depending on the voltage rating of its components.

Mike


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 28, 2017 1:47 pm 
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mmarsh wrote:
Just to clarify for others that may be reading this thread: the 5 knob compressor running at 18v will not cause any damage whatsoever to other pedals in the signal chain regardless of switching topology. Applying 18v to power a 9v effect may or may not damage that effect depending on the voltage rating of its components.

+1!!

Every pedal schematic I can ever remember seeing has a DC blocking cap at the input and output ends of the circuit that would prevent this kind of thing from happening. Even if you had a bad cap in the BYOC pedal (this would be an extreme rarity!), there's no way that the DC voltage could cascade through a series of pedals in the chain. I don't know how those other four pedals got damaged, but it sure wasn't the fault of the 5-knob comp. I would be looking at the power supplies that were used to power the pedals and how they are connected together. Perhaps there's a daisy chain power connector supplying those four pedals that accidentally got connected to an 18V supply or some other incompatible P/S, e.g. an AC supply or one with a center-positive plug polarity?

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 28, 2017 3:49 pm 
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I'm sorry, but this is actually what happened. I have not connected the other four to any other power supply than the one they have been connected to for years. I used a separate DC power supply for the compressor only. When connecting it and hooking it up in the rest of the pedal chain, it fried four pedals which in no way were connected to the compressor in any other way than through the signal cables.
Sorry guys, but this actually happened.
The "other P/S" that you so colourfully refer to is a carefully selected stabilised 9VDC 1A power supply that I have been using for many years. That did not cause the meltdown.
I would be very happy if this fine pedal had not been the culprit, but, sorry to say, there really is no other explanation.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 28, 2017 4:32 pm 
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I repeat: not possible.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 28, 2017 5:31 pm 
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Ditto that.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 28, 2017 5:33 pm 
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I don't doubt your experience as you described it, but I think what the guys are trying to say is that the science of these circuits does not support your conclusion. Current does not pass through the I/O of any BYOC effects pedal, certainly not one that is functioning properly. (I can't even get my head around a way it could happen even with a major wiring error or drastic faulty connection somewhere, but I'll leave that speculation to people who are more knowledgeable.)

I am sympathetic to the reality that it appears that the 5KC is at fault, but that's correlation, not causation. I'd want to see evidence beyond simultaneous usage and physical proximity.

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PostPosted: Wed May 03, 2017 3:48 am 
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I repeat: It happened. Are you saying that a Boss compressor that has been functioning flawlessly since 1991, a DOD enveloper that has sat in the chain for more than a year, a Mooer PureBoost that I've been using for at least 2-3 years, and a tone buffer, all decided simultaneously to kick the bucket just like that? At the very moment that I connected the BYOC Compressor? What on Earth leads you to such a conclusion?
Once again:
• ALL pedals were properly hooked up to a stable 9VDC power supply. The Boss compressor/sustainer has even been hardwired to it for 20+ years.
• NONE of them were disconnected from the power supply or altered in ANY other way before adding the BYOC.
• ALL of them had been working for years and years and gigs and rehearsals.
• The 9VDC is STILL working properly, currently powering the BYOC and an MXR+.
• I ONLY used the 18VDC for the BYOC.
• ALL of the pedals I mentioned here died at the very same time that I first added the BYOC to the signal chain with a separate 18VDC power supply. All of them, simultaneously, at that very occasion.
• There are NO voltage spikes from either the power supply nor the grid.
• I have been playing the guitar for more than 35 years, gone through a large number of pedals, amps, guitars, power supplies, and wirings. Nothing like this has ever happened before. Ever.
• On the other hand, I have noticed that some non-true bypass pedals DO tend to share some voltage along the signal chain. I have seen it with my own two eyes for years. I do not take any mind-altering drugs and I am not delusional. It is a fact that I have observed.

I am getting a bit offended here by the "Not possible" parroting, without even the slightest attempt to look into the problem. I would not write this unless I had carefully examined the situation. This is actually what happened. Deal with it.


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PostPosted: Wed May 03, 2017 6:36 am 
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Here's why you're getting this response: you're claiming that a well established pedal circuit, verified by probably hundreds of builds, is doing something it has never been reported to do before, and for which there is no scientific explanation. Again, I don't doubt your story, but I have to be skeptical of your explanation. My point: if this pedal blew up your other pedals and you were operating everything correctly (which given your experience seems likely), there is a major problem with your build. So post some photos and let's have a look.

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PostPosted: Wed May 03, 2017 7:13 am 
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The photos are at the top of this thread, my friend.


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PostPosted: Wed May 03, 2017 7:23 am 
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Besides, the compressor is working now, after fixing a few bad solderings and running it on 9VDC. Previously in the thread, I have described problems I have had with the build, which I happily admit were due to my own inexperience. So please do take some time and review a sincere query from one of your paying customers before shouting me down with the, quite frankly, unprofessional "that can't happen" attitude.

I've been in this game long enough to know that there isn't anything such as "scientifically impossible". Some of the world's biggest disasters have occurred exactly because people assumed just that. There is only science that has been discovered, and science that is yet to be discovered.


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PostPosted: Wed May 03, 2017 7:57 am 
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I'm trying, man!

Those photos were from a prior problem. I assumed (apparently correctly) that you had done some work and fixed them. If you've changed anything, new photos might be in order.

Yes, of course there is science yet to be discovered. But the way that happens is through skeptical examination of cause and effect, reproducible testing, and peer review. None of which we've had a chance to engage in, because you're convinced you already know what the result of that process would be. I'm sorry if you've felt shut down, but in this case, the burden of proof lies with you. I'm open to being convinced. So far, I see clear correlation but nothing to indicate what would be the first instance of causation anyone has ever seen.

By the way, no one in this thread is an employee of BYOC, so you're not our customer. We're all either volunteer moderators or (as is the case with me) just other BYOC customers who are interested. If you see user byoc, that's Keith, the owner. If you see nwkenning, that's Nick; he also works for BYOC. They're the only ones drawing paychecks with their time.

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PostPosted: Wed May 03, 2017 9:06 am 
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sjaustin wrote:
By the way, no one in this thread is an employee of BYOC, so you're not our customer. We're all either volunteer moderators or (as is the case with me) just other BYOC customers who are interested. If you see user byoc, that's Keith, the owner. If you see nwkenning, that's Nick; he also works for BYOC. They're the only ones drawing paychecks with their time.


I apologise, sincerely. I was under the impression that this forum was somehow official. (But why is then everyone so vehemently denying that there might be any problem with the product? Just curious.)

sjaustin wrote:
I'm trying, man!


Thank you, I appreciate it. See also previous apology.

sjaustin wrote:
Those photos were from a prior problem. I assumed (apparently correctly) that you had done some work and fixed them. If you've changed anything, new photos might be in order.


The only thing I've changed is that I've improved some dodgy solderings.

sjaustin wrote:
Yes, of course there is science yet to be discovered. But the way that happens is through skeptical examination of cause and effect, reproducible testing, and peer review. None of which we've had a chance to engage in, because you're convinced you already know what the result of that process would be. I'm sorry if you've felt shut down, but in this case, the burden of proof lies with you. I'm open to being convinced. So far, I see clear correlation but nothing to indicate what would be the first instance of causation anyone has ever seen.


I beg to differ. I have described a series of events which strongly indicate causation as the most likely reason. Moreover, there is no other more likely reason. A chap named William of Ockham springs to mind here.

If I had unlimited time and resources, I could certainly go out and buy a stack of the aforementioned pedals and keep frying them until the rest of the people here were convinced. Sorry to say, though, you all seem to be much more convinced that what I claim isn't true than I am convinced that it is, since you are prepared to reject it outright without the slightest consideration. So I doubt that I would convince you even with more proof than I have already provided, which is frankly quite a lot.

However, by all means, feel free to hook up an identical signal chain and repeat the experiment. I'd be happy to provide you with a block diagram and technical specs.


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 Post subject: 5 knob won't come alive
PostPosted: Wed May 03, 2017 10:22 am 
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Thanks for your kind reply. I can see where you're coming from. Here's what I mean by burden of proof, just to clarify, not to argue. (And then I'll probably bow out, because I'm not being helpful at this point.) Imagine you turned on your shower in the first floor bathroom, and on the same day found major water damage in the attic above the third floor. It being a sunny day, the only water you can imagine got into your attic was the water from the shower. But there's no pipe that pumps the water from the first floor to the attic against the forces of gravity. In that case, Occam's Razor isn't much help, because the simplest explanation doesn't actually make a whit of sense. It's a mystery.

There's no "pipe" from the power supply of your BYOC 5KC to the input or output jacks that connect the pedal to the rest of the chain. (
Unless I am very much mistaken about my understanding of these circuits, but the other responses in this thread tell me I'm probably right. (Edited to say: a better analogy is probably that there's a pipe, but it goes against "gravity", that is, the DC blocking caps DVM mentions below.) You've got water in your attic on a sunny day—I don't doubt your story! But unless you can show me the path by which it got there, I remain skeptical that it was the shower that caused it. The science doesn't support it, new discoveries notwithstanding. Again, I'm certainly not trying to tell you you're stupid or even that you're wrong, necessarily. I'm only explaining why I believe the burden of proof lies with you.

No matter what, I'm really sorry for the loss of effects that you rely on and enjoy. That sucks, and we can all agree and empathize with that.

OK, I will shut up now.

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Last edited by sjaustin on Wed May 03, 2017 12:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed May 03, 2017 11:31 am 
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ricebridge wrote:
But why is then everyone so vehemently denying that there might be any problem with the product? Just curious.

The responses you've gotten from us forum moderators (mmarsh, Stephen and me) are based upon:

  1. Many years of experience providing technical support (as unpaid volunteers/fellow pedal & guitar enthusiasts) to BYOC customers here in the forums. Between the three of us, I believe we have somewhere between 25 - 30 years of combined experience here, dealing with thousands of customer problems.
  2. Our technical knowledge of how these effects circuits are designed and work.

The point that we are trying to make is that, if there was a design flaw in the 5-knob comp that would cause the kind of issue you have described, we certainly would have seen it here by now....many times. The current version of this kit was introduced in mid-2009, so it's been out for almost 8 years. I don't know how many BYOC has sold, but it certainly must be in the hundreds at this point. Do you seriously think that you are the first 5-knob comp customer to use an 18W P/S to power the pedal in a chain with other 9V pedals? With all due respect to Ockham's Razor, your conclusion just doesn't make sense in the context of a boatload of historical data & experience.

I have little doubt that your use of the 18V P/S with the 5-knob caused the failure of the other 4 pedals....I just don't think we know exactly how/why. Effects pedals are specifically designed to keep DC voltage out of the signal path with the use of blocking capacitors near the start and end of the circuit. If you take a look at the 5-knob schematic on pg. 24 of the instructions, you'll see those caps at C7 and C21. Even if the 5-knob was somehow leaking 18VDC through the input or output signal path, the next pedal in the chain should block it via their caps. So what else could be going on here?

Maybe getting more "data" from you would help us answer that question. Could you provide answers to the following questions:

  • What make & model # is the 18V supply? Same question for the 9V supply that you've been using for a long time.
  • What specifically are the 4 pedals that failed? Are any of them true bypass?
  • Have you opened up any of the failed pedals to see if the mode of failure is visible? Blown diodes? Anything burnt/charred? Burnt smell present?
  • What is in the entire pedal chain, from guitar to amp? Where was the 5-knob in that chain? Were the pedals that failed before or after it? Were there other pedals in the chain that didn't fail? If so, where?
  • Was the 5-knob in bypass mode when you plugged in the 18V power? Same question for the four failed pedals.
  • Do you recall if the pedal chain output was plugged into an amplifier when this occurred?

I may have additional questions after thinking about this odd problem further, or prompted by your answers to the above questions. But please don't think that we aren't interested in how this happened. We just believe that its by a mechanism other than the one you settled on.

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PostPosted: Wed May 03, 2017 12:21 pm 
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Connect power to the pedal and insert a plug into the input jack. Then use a DMM set to DC voltage to see if there is an inordinate amount of DC voltage on the output jack. Report back with your findings.

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PostPosted: Wed May 03, 2017 12:33 pm 
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Stephen wrote:
Connect power to the pedal and insert a plug into the input jack. Then use a DMM set to DC voltage to see if there is an inordinate amount of DC voltage on the output jack. Report back with your findings.

Yep, I was thinking of asking our OP to check that same thing. Ricebridge, if you have a multimeter and can do this, please check both the tip and sleeve of the input cable for DC voltage. It would also be worthwhile to plug a cable into the output jack (but leave the first cable in the input jack!) and make the same measurements there.

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