Build Your Own Clone Message Board

Somehow managed to snag a Phase Royal kit with a 4-stage module from a shop in Canada. Still working through some grounding issues because the LED is on but dim during bypass, but I'm pretty sure it's just the 3PDT so I'm waiting for some new ones to come in.

In the meantime, I've been comparing it to my Whirlwind Orange Box which to date has been my absolute favorite phaser. I was hoping the Phase Royal could replace it on my board but I find myself not liking it as much. There's too much gain/overdrive/clipping even with the input/output dialed back, and its nowhere near as lush and full sounding as the Whirlwind. I've been messing with their respective bias trims and have them set pretty damn close, but the Royal is inherently still more "choked" and prone to clipping.

Anyone have any suggestions on how to mod the Royal to the same specs as the Whirlwind? They're supposed to be pretty much the same as a 70's script but having owned both at one time and trying them together, the Whirlwind still sounds more lush, so idk what else they have going on in it. I was trying to find a schematic to post in the thread as reference but can't seem to locate one. Closest I've got is gut shots from here: https://www.freestompboxes.org/viewtopic.php?t=27368

If necessary I can gut my own Whirlwind and post better pics here.

Any help would be appreciated, otherwise it's probably going to get sold to a buddy once I work out the kinks in the grounding.

I would assume the Whirlwind is an exact clone of the original phase90, right down to the PCB layout and wrapping it in foam.

There really isn't anything more you can do to the phase royal to make it more script like.

_________________
*patience is a virtue*

Please do not PM me. email is prefered. keith@buildyourownclone.com

Why is there such a difference in tonality? Why is there so much more clipping on the Royal but none on the Whirlwind? Does it have to do with the Whirlwind being a more straightforward and simple circuit and the addition of extra controls of the Royal taking something away?

I've spent a couple hours pitting them against each other and trying to dial everything in on the Royal to almost exactly the same sound as the Whirlwind, and even at its closest there is still something missing.

I don't know. Maybe there's some sort of minor problem with your pedal. A mixed up component value or a cold solder joint that isn't critical enough to cause the pedal to fail. The phase royal has a charge pump, so it should actually have less clipping.

_________________
*patience is a virtue*

Please do not PM me. email is prefered. keith@buildyourownclone.com

Feel free to post some photos of your build if you'd like additional eyes on it. Even very experienced builders make mistakes sometimes, and it can be extremely hard to see your own.

_________________
Scott

My band, Austin Hollow

You'll note there is an exposed trace near the DC adapter. This was from the nut on the DC jack scraping against it during installation. I've been meaning to cover that up before I finish but it doesn't seem to actually be affecting anything. I also have an issue just under the Mix B10K. While clipping my leads, it pulled away part of the trace on that hole. I had it jumped to the hole just to the left of it, as that's where it appears to be connecting to, but I didn't notice any difference in signal so I removed the jumper as what's left of the trace still seems to be making connection anyways. I had a similar issue on a hole for a resistor the 4-stage module but to a lesser extent.

I don't see anything out of place. Good looking build, BTW. Please take voltage readings of the op amps, but on the main PCB and module with the module installed.

_________________
*patience is a virtue*

Please do not PM me. email is prefered. keith@buildyourownclone.com

I'm still pretty bad at troubleshooting with a DMM. What's the best way to go about testing voltages on those?

To measure the DC voltage level on the op amp pins, set your multimeter to the DC voltage mode, indicated by a solid line above a dotted one. Use the 20VDC range setting if it's not an auto-ranging meter. Your power source needs to be connected and there needs to be a cable in the input jack. If the pedal is assembled into the metal enclosure, put the black probe into one of the corner screw bosses of the enclosure--this is your ground connection. If the "guts" are out of the enclosure, use the sleeve tab of the input jack for the ground connection. Then touch the red probe to each point that you want to measure. Keep in mind that this circuit employs a charge pump IC (the one on the top side of the main PCB), and negative voltages are present on some of the op amp pins, so be sure to watch for that in your results. See the left side of the image below for the numbering of the IC pins.

_________________
“My favorite programming language is SOLDER” - Bob Pease (RIP)

My Website * My Musical Gear * My DIY Pedals: Pg.1 - Pg.2

Before I get super thorough, is there anything specific I should be looking for? Or do you want full voltage readings for every pin of all 7 opamps? If so, what's the proper numbering scheme on them so I can list them accordingly? I'm still weak on reading schematics so I'm not sure which is IC1, IC2, IC3 in terms of how they are physically positioned on the back of the board. The 4 stage module is at least a bit easier if I'm correct in assuming the schematic holds the same left to right orientation as the actual board?

For starters, do just the IC's on the main board so we can see if they look OK. Do all 8 pins, please. Include the 1054 charge pump on the front side of the board, too, since the voltages it puts out are critical to the function of the rest of the circuit. Don't worry about the IC1/IC2/IC3 designation, just describe them by their physical location on the board as shown on page 18 of the instructions.


Gave you the pin numbering info already, two posts up.


We'll deal with that after the main board IC's, if needed.

I have a fully functional Phase Royal here, with the 4-stage module, so I can check your voltage results against my own.

_________________
“My favorite programming language is SOLDER” - Bob Pease (RIP)

My Website * My Musical Gear * My DIY Pedals: Pg.1 - Pg.2

From the back of the board with the pots facing up, here's the TL072's:

LEFT
1. 0
2. 0
3. 0
4. -7.96
5. 0
6. 0
7. 0
8. 7.83 to 7.86

MIDDLE
1. 0
2. 0
3. 0
4. -7.96
5. 0
6. 0
7. 0
8. 7.84 to 7.87

RIGHT
1. 3.17 to 4.99
2. 3.17 to 4.99
3. 3.20 to 4.98, drops to 2.26 at minimum rate
4. 0
5. 2.74 jumps to 3.75, then 4.05, climbs to 4.35, drops back to 3.58 then down to 2.95 and decreases to 2.74 again
6. 3.17 to 4.99, drops to 2.16 or raises to 5.10 at minimum rate
7. 1.25 to 7.28
8. 7.84 to 7.91

CHARGE PUMP (LT1054)
1. 8.69
2. 4.70
3. 0
4. -3.75
5. -8.21
6. 2.57
7. 1.45
8. 8.69

The furthest right TL072 was pretty tricky to measure since the voltages varied with the rate. But if I put the rate too low, it would either stay static or just drop down to a really low voltage and hold there, and too fast would make it hard to get accurate measurements.

Those values look right on the money. That third op amp drives the LFO circuit, so it should modulate as you observed.

Go ahead and install the module and get voltage values off those op amps. Keep in mind that those are single op amps, so some of the pins aren't connected.

_________________
“My favorite programming language is SOLDER” - Bob Pease (RIP)

My Website * My Musical Gear * My DIY Pedals: Pg.1 - Pg.2

With the pots facing down, from left to right:

LEFT
1. -7.96
2. -0.19 to -0.22
3. -0.19 to -0.22
4. -7.97
5. -7.96
6. -0.40 to -0.45
7. 7.83 to 7.89
8. 0

LEFT MIDDLE
1. -7.96
2. -0.19 to -0.22
3. -0.19 to -0.21
4. -7.98
5. -7.96
6. 0
7. 7.84 to 7.9
8. 0

RIGHT MIDDLE
1. -7.96
2. -0.18 to -0.21
3. -0.18 to -0.20
4. -7.98
5. -7.96
6. -0.37 to -0.42
7. 7.85 to 7.91
8. 0

RIGHT
1. -7.96
2. -0.18 to -0.21
3. -0.18 to -0.20
4. -7.98
5. -7.96
6. 0
7. 7.86 to 7.91
8. 0

I'm away from home at the moment but will check your results against my pedal when I get home later today.

_________________
“My favorite programming language is SOLDER” - Bob Pease (RIP)

My Website * My Musical Gear * My DIY Pedals: Pg.1 - Pg.2

OK, checked mine out and your voltage numbers are spot-on.

Just to confirm--you did optimize the trimpot setting on the 4-stage module per the instructions in Step 6 (pg. 7) of the instructions? The optimal setting will occur in a very narrow sweep range.

If you turn the Mix pot full CCW, do you get a good clean "dry" signal without the distortion? Another thing you can do to isolate the main PCB performance from the module is to remove the module and run a jumper wire between the Send and Rtrn sockets on the two socket headers. Then run your guitar signal through the pedal, varying the Mix control across its full sweep range to see how the unprocessed signal sounds and if it changes audibly from one side of the control to the other.

_________________
“My favorite programming language is SOLDER” - Bob Pease (RIP)

My Website * My Musical Gear * My DIY Pedals: Pg.1 - Pg.2

I don't have a scope but I think I've got the trimpot dialed in to the best sounding sweep possible. And I have tried it full CCW on the mix and it sound just fine at 100% dry.

After playing with a it a bit more, the breakup issue is without doubt in the Regen. At full CCW I get a very clean phase though it's not very present, but as I crank it up the breakup starts to come in and the signal almost sounds like its starting to degrade a bit. Also, no matter what setting I try, the phase sounds very "choked" compared to the Whirlwind.

I'm going to put a new 3PDT in it to see if that solves my grounding issues, but if that doesn't fix it, is there someone here I can send both the Phase Royal and the Whirlwind to that can take a look at things, compare them, and figure out what's wrong?

Pulled the 3PDT and tested continuity. Everything appears correct. After rewiring I am still getting grounding issues and the LED is still on but dim when pedal is in bypass.

Not really sure where to go from here.

Maybe there's nothing wrong with your pedal. Maybe you just don't like it.

It's not unusual for the LED to still be very dimly lit. The 3PDT makes/breaks ground to the emitter of the LED transistor, but a tiny bit of current can still flow out through the base. So you probably don't have a grounding issue...unless there's something else other than the LED to make you think you have a grounding issue.

The original phase90 (and assuming the whirlwind as well) don't have any regeneration feedback loop. You can try pulling C9 and C10 (or the regen pot if that's easier). This will completely remove the feedback loop. If you like the sound of this better, maybe you can add a switch to make/break the feedback loop.

_________________
*patience is a virtue*

Please do not PM me. email is prefered. keith@buildyourownclone.com

I just figured since the LED was on and dim during bypass that there was a grounding issue, which could maybe be leading to the other issues. But maybe you're right, maybe everything is correct and I just don't vibe with it.

voodooman is taking care of me, so after some more in depth troubleshooting we'll see if there's legit something wrong with it. If everything is actually in working order then I guess I'll just see if one of my buddies or a local gearhead wants it. Of the 5 BYOC pedals I have this will be the first one I'm not totally in love with.

If you don't end up being happy with it, I would encourage you to try one of the other modules and go for a totally different phaser sound. I happen to love the optocoupler module in mine, and I dig the 4-Stage OTA nearly as much. Now admittedly, I have never been as much of a fan of the JFET phasers anyway. But for $20-25, you can add another sound to your tonal toolbox. Something to consider…

_________________
Scott

My band, Austin Hollow