Build Your Own Clone Message Board

http://cgi.ebay.com/BossTone-Fuzz-Pedal ... dZViewItem

The PCB looks like a BYOC. I guess this style PCB is available to be made?

Anyone can design a board and have it made...

http://www.expresspcb.com/

looks like a dead on copy, except it says bosstone instead of BYOC

_________________
Christianity, if false, is of no importance, and if true, of infinite importance. The only thing it cannot be is moderately important - C.S. Lewis

It's based on a circuit that Jordan used back in 1967, so I guess we have to ask who is copying who?

It's not the same as the BYOC board, anyhow.

Yeah, I had to go back and look. There are a few subtle differences. Mind you, coping a circuit isn't a big deal, copying a layout could be. Looking at it closer, it isn't as dead on as I first thought.

_________________
Christianity, if false, is of no importance, and if true, of infinite importance. The only thing it cannot be is moderately important - C.S. Lewis

wow that's like $20 in parts!

I guess the extra $110 is in the enclosure painting/decals, much like some other 'unmentionable' pedals we know of, right?

sheeeeeet i'm in the wrong profession

I can build 'em if you can paint 'em ... split the profit 50/50? (Remembering of course, the build takes 20 minutes and the enclosure takes a month)

and advertising

and labor

and shipping

and light bills

and insurance

etc....

btw...a couple things...a 3pdt switch, enclosure, powdercoating, jacks, led, pcb, resistors, caps, pots, wire, solder, etc cost more than "$20". Oh...the Mahoney doesnt use a decal...its a stick on "puffy thing" that feels / looks cool...not sure exactly what it is (I'd have to ask Chris) ...but it's definitely different from any stompbox i've seen.


lets take a minute and break things down...

that pedal came from a dealer....

Retail was $130

average markup on a pedal leaves about a 35-40% margin... so if it retails for $130, it probably cost the dealer about $80 wholesale. Now, from that $80 we have approximately $35-$40 in part costs. Lets just use the $40 figure. $80 - $40 = $40. We've all shipped pedals , and know its about $6.50 on average to ship in the USA....that leaves $33.50. Don't forget a $2 or so packing material cost. $31.50. Better figure in advertising...thats probably about another $2.50 per box average. Even if that were the ONLY expenses involved in making and selling a stompbox...which they aren't....that leaves $29.00. Let's just say that it takes, on average, 3 hours "start to finish" to complete a stompbox...including finish work, assembly, testing, packing, etc. That works out to under $10 per hour. Keep in mind that I didn't even figure in websites fee's, electricity, insurance, wear and tear on gear, gas to get to the post office (and supplies) and back, licensing fee's, etc, etc. Also, keep in mind that many pedal companies utilize "ghost builders", which means they pay somebody to assemble the pedal for them. That cuts into profit as well (not sure if Mahoney does this or not though)

You can make that much working at Taco Bell. Most builders are not "getting rich", contrary to what some under-informed people might believe.

Try building pedals for a living (or owning ANY small business) and you'll begin to understand that there are TONS of hidden expenses...oh, and don't forget that some of us have taken YEARS to learn how to do this...some of us aren't just building from a kit or building a Fuzz Face clone. Some builders have to KNOW electronics....just like some artists have to KNOW how to paint, instead of just using "paint by numbers" pictures. Don't get me wrong, I love kits. I think that theyre a GREAT "basic" learning tool. But you'll never become an expert until you go beyond kits. For some people that's fine...they dont need, nor want to go beyond kits...they just want to have a little fun and save a few $$$ on pedals, and thats absolutely fine. But for them to chastise the people who DO go beyond assembling from kits for wanting to scrape out a living is patently ridiculous.


Lets look at it another way....

Do you guys complain that Keith sells a ESV BYOC Fuzz kit for $95 ? According to this thread, that has what ... $20 in parts ? According to some of you, Keith MUST be making $75 in profit for every one he sells...he's getting rich ! You should be angry that he makes that kind of a profit off of you, and he doesnt even have to BUILD the pedals ! Well... maybe not. A CNC machine costs money. Parts cost WAY more than $20. Advertising ? Not free. This website and forum costs money. Shipping and packing supplies cost $$$ too. He has to pay other business related bills as well as trying to support himself and family.

I'll say it again...before you start proclaiming how much people are making in profit, or how much you're getting ripped off, try owning your own business.

Getting off of my soapbox now.

_________________
Noelle Hampton.....Mike Farmer and the Bandoleros....Ray Wylie Hubbard

geez I was exaggerating

While I'm sure that's true, it's a common misconception...oh, a pedal only costs a few bucks to make...heck, resistors are a few cents, caps are cheap, transistors are usually under $.10 each, etc... I simply wanted to make the point that "most people have absolutely no idea about what a pedal costs to make and market, regardless of what they think". My post wasn't necessarily directed at you personally...it was directed at a lot of people.

_________________
Noelle Hampton.....Mike Farmer and the Bandoleros....Ray Wylie Hubbard

+1 Dragonfly. Keith also has 2 employee's, BTW. Expenses have a way of popping up, even after you think you have things budgeted. Oh yeah. If there's a prob with your build, believe me, you spend money trying to make it good with the customer, aside from time lost.

_________________
Everyone likes sausage. Nobody wants to see how it's made.

I figured the cost was pretty good, actually. And a custom PCB to boot. I did a short run of pcbs for my pedals and it cost me a small fortune.

_________________
Christianity, if false, is of no importance, and if true, of infinite importance. The only thing it cannot be is moderately important - C.S. Lewis

Seriously. To get anything near cost effective in parts you have to buy in huge bulk - talking hundreds or thousands of each part, depending. That's risk and investment. You have to spend money to make money, and hope that the customers come after that to buy the stuff.

I haven't built a pedal from scratch yet that didn't cost me at -least- $40. Enclosure, pots, jacks, and switches add up in a hurry...

pwoz - just reiterating, this isn't directed at you. I know it was your comment that sparked this discussion, and I know this was not your intention. I think dragonfly is right in that its a LOT of people who hold onto these misconceptions and this is directed at them

_________________
µ

I have ... just over $14


Picture property of Naz Nomad

Maybe some of us aren't worried about spending loads of money, maybe some of us are?

Just for the record, the total parts (not including solder, hookup wire and paint) for that Bosstone pedal in the UK would be under £20 (around $39) ... I suspect that would be a lot less if purchased in the US?

I can understand all the marketing and crap behind it, but I was mainly talking about someone in my situation:

build a pedal
sell on ebay

that's it, lol

I knew what you meant ...

Now if you can just give me a hand to throw all their ^^^ toys back in their pram

You're not really understanding the "this isn't directed at you" part of my post, are you ?


I'm just saying that most people dont bother to think about all the "other" costs involved in running a business.

For instance, did you bother to think about the fact that Mahoney had to legally PURCHASE the Bosstone name ? Probably not. But that money has to be accounted for, just like materials, shipping, time and effort, using RoHS compliant materials (ever priced compliant solder ?) insurance, etc, etc.

_________________
Noelle Hampton.....Mike Farmer and the Bandoleros....Ray Wylie Hubbard

Gotta love these "this person is bad for taking the time to design and build pedals for profit - I could totally do that" threads.

Gimme a break. There is nothing wrong with that pedal. I bet it sounds freaking great. Yeah - the pcb looks similar to a BYOC one and maybe the builder gleaned an idea or two from seeing Keith's designs (maybe not - maybe all standard series pcb's from expresspcb end up looking like that), but it is still his own work and that is an excellent price for a warrantied, professionally hand built stompbox. And not many builders have the cojones to even show a gut shot with their pedals.

_________________
MasterDelayer/Reverbrador/Ampaholic/TopJacker

I'm not saying they're bad. If you have the time and energy to consistently make pedals and can sell them at an insane profit, more power to you. I'm talking the individual person, not some small company that has to worry about those other costs.

Look - I am not out to attack anyone here. ^^^That stuff just pisses me off. I am out to defend the builder as I will always defend the vast majority of all stompbox builders.

Insane profit?

That's just not how it is. There is no way to avoid those 'other' costs if you were going to do this for real. I suggest you put together a simple run of 10 pedals using your own pcb and sell them for $130. Track your labor - including your design time - and see how insane the profit is. Don't get me wrong, there will be some profit in there. The insane part will be how little you make for your efforts. Not quite a livable wage - unless a miracle happens and those things fly off the shelf for the rest of your life...and you don't need to buy health insurance.

There is nobody stopping any of us from building commercial pedals. Some of us just get a little pissed when honest builders get flammed over the issue of the worth of the parts in his build. Especially when he is asking for a perfectly reasonable price. Go ahead and sell your own pedals for an "insane" profit. I am all for it.

And, lest we forget, we are all standing on the backs of those who came before us. It was not long ago that all of this was much, much more expensive. It took a lot of work from other people, who also tend to get flammed (Fulltone, Small Bear), to make the stompswitches, enclosures, circuit diagrams, etc. we all take for granted, readily available for purchase by newbies (like we all were once) to buy them, make their own pedals, and then say "Hey - that guy is charging too much for that pedal".

_________________
MasterDelayer/Reverbrador/Ampaholic/TopJacker

I'm not saying it's bad that they charge alot. I'm simply saying that if anyone wants to (without starting a business), they can build a few pedals (let's say $30 each using parts from the net) and ebaying them or even selling locally (via craigslist or something).

I don't mean on a regular basis because this would be extremely time consuming, unless you're like the BYOC crew. But that's understandable, it's their business, and they're darn good at it!
I'm not trying to call someone bad for charging $x instead of $n. We live in a beautiful, capitalist society.

I honestly wish I got started in this hobby years ago.. I mean let's say if I built one pedal a week for 5 years and was consistently selling them just to make some cash on the side, why not?

DIY is awesome because there are lazy people out there that either don't feel like learning how to make pedals/amps/whatever or they simply lack the technical know-how. I used to be one of them (until I manned it up and decided to take a stab at this new addiction!)

If Person A makes a quality project, doing something they enjoy and can still make a nice profit, more power to them!

You forget that we're all here primarily because we BUILD OUR OWN CLONES, right?

Well, surely the post by pwoz was justified, as one thing most of us should think when looking at a pedal is, "hmmm, what's inside it and how much could I replicate it for?"

Morgan, don't be pissed off at my post, I think you're all way too serious than is healthy. Lighten up, take a chill-pill and play some geetar.

A couple months back, I tried to factor in every area of cost involved when I make a pedal. This included shipping on all parts used, and I even factored in the per-unit cost (estimated) of the chemicals I etch the boards with. When you include all of the intangibles (like shipping costs), you get a much better idea of what the actual cost is per pedal (excluding your time of course -- this is a hobby, after all).

I don't normally breadboard every circuit. I just build it, finish it, and test it. If I don't like it, I sell it on eBay to recoup costs. After the cost of the materials, etc, and after I pay the eBay fee and the PayPal fee, I usually end up making about $15-$20 on any given pedal, sometimes less. And that's fine, because all I really want to do is break even + a little bit so I can continue to fuel the addiction.

Unless I won a big lottery payout and just didn't care about making money, there's no way I'd try to make a go of commercial pedal building. I have a lot of respect for those folks that do it for a living.

_________________
==||==
Function f(x)
TightCamera - Gear Reviews