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PostPosted: Thu Jun 26, 2014 7:08 pm 
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Yeah, you heard me, son. Concertina.

The concertina player in my band has a set of stereo mics that attach to either side of his instrument, then plug into a small preamp box that he attaches to his vocal mic stand with a Velcro strap. There are two problems with this:

1. The damn thing is constantly falling off the mic stand, and he sometimes forgets to turn it off when he's not using it. (The volume pot clicks off at the very bottom of its rotation—not sure I've actually seen how one of those pots is wired.)

2. It's a little bit shrill and harsh.

What I'd like to do is rehouse the preamp into a standard stomp box format with a footswitch separate from the volume control. And I'd also like to try adding a tone control to the circuit. I don't really know exactly how to do either part of this endeavor. Any suggestions or ideas?

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Last edited by sjaustin on Mon Aug 17, 2015 3:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 26, 2014 10:36 pm 
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Will you be able to have it around for a while? These things are usually pretty simple. If you post gut shots, we might be able to get and idea of the circuit and where to have in a tonestack.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 27, 2014 7:38 am 
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Morgan wrote:
Will you be able to have it around for a while? These things are usually pretty simple. If you post gut shots, we might be able to get and idea of the circuit and where to have in a tonestack.

Yeah, cool—I'll get it from him after our gig Saturday and post a few photos. The circuit is quite small, not much to it at all.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 27, 2014 10:24 am 
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Yeah - these things are usually just some sort of op amp clean boost, usually with a bipolar power supply.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 28, 2014 11:34 am 
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I wonder if a Stage 3 booster would work well. Hmm.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 28, 2014 11:53 am 
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I've used a byoc fet preamp on a lot of acoustic instruments with good results, guitar, fiddle, standup bass, viola, mandolin, dobro, etc. You can buy just the pcb and chips so you don't need the full kit. . Leave the pull down resistor out for max input impedance.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 01, 2014 7:17 am 
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Here's another thing that occurred to me. I'd like the stomp switch to cut the signal entirely, as opposed to just bypassing the circuitry; otherwise, he'll set the concertina down and horrifying mic feedback will ensue. But I've only ever built true bypass effects, so I don't quite know how to do this.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 01, 2014 9:18 am 
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A couple options for that. Wired it up true bypass and just leave out the longer of the two jumpers on the switch. Or hard wire the circuit on (jacks straight to the pcb), and wire the switch with the LED to lug 1, ground to lugs 2 and 5, and then run a second wire from the tip of the output jack to lug 6. This just grounds the output when you step on the switch and is usually more quiet than the first method.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 02, 2014 5:25 pm 
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Morgan wrote:
I've used a byoc fet preamp on a lot of acoustic instruments with good results, guitar, fiddle, standup bass, viola, mandolin, dobro, etc. You can buy just the pcb and chips so you don't need the full kit. . Leave the pull down resistor out for max input impedance.


I love using my FET Preamp to drive a mic. it helps when recording directly into garageband on my phone.

nothing i use is really irreplaceable so i dont care about impedance (and if it is irreplaceable, i dont fux with it), but i agree that the FET is great for more than just guitar.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 09, 2014 7:37 am 
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Well, I can confirm that the Stage 3 Booster on its own is not sufficient. Needs an honest to goodness preamp, duh. :)

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 03, 2014 2:55 pm 
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Getting back into this project. I have a FET pre almost all built up. I'm curious about the impedance question. Why do we want maximum input impedance in this case? Also, this rig will lead into a direct box, a black box I confess I still don't understand after more than a decade of using them for guitar—but I seem to recall it affects impedance as well. Anyone have other thoughts on impedance?

Also: I'm contemplating putting a compressor in the box before the preamp, because this instrument tends to produce some spikiness, especially played live while buzzed. I have a PCB for the Madbean Afterlife optical compressor. Opinions?

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 06, 2014 2:00 pm 
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Monday bump. Anyone got thoughts on impedance and compression in this context?

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 06, 2014 6:33 pm 
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scott, could you post make & model of the mics he's using? If I can look up the specs, I could put together a preamp/mute circuit for you to fit the impedance needs.

also, what's he using for amplification currently, and is it what you want? what's the complete desired signal path? is it mics > preamp > tone control > compressor > amplifier (or PA)?

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 07, 2014 7:49 am 
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CaptainPeyote wrote:
scott, could you post make & model of the mics he's using? If I can look up the specs, I could put together a preamp/mute circuit for you to fit the impedance needs.

also, what's he using for amplification currently, and is it what you want? what's the complete desired signal path? is it mics > preamp > tone control > compressor > amplifier (or PA)?

Hey thanks man. He's using stuff made by Microvox: a microphone and power supply/preamp (the standard one). These have both been modded to use ⅛" phono plug instead of RCA plugs. (I don't know why.)

The signal path is currently mic > preamp > direct box > mixer. I'm really not sure what the best path is in a perfect world. I am open to suggestions. My thought was that the compression should happen before the preamp, so it doesn't override/squish the volume setting of the preamp, but I think you're right that it should go after, like when an acoustic guitar has an internal preamp. As for where the tone control goes, I have no idea.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 07, 2014 5:53 pm 
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well.... if it were me, here's how I'd do it:

first off, it looks like those mics want to see a low-Z preamp. The unit he's using now has a 1k input impedance. It's not unusual for mics to want low-Z, that's generally how mixing board preamps are configured. The classic Mackie VLZ series has 2.5k input Z on all its mic channels, for example. This means that, while a bipolar supply opamp circuit is fine, you won't want one that's optimized for guitar (with a very HIGH input Z). You'll want to design an opamp circuit that has a similarly low input Z. Try something like this:

Attachment:
inverting amplifier.PNG


for this circuit, gain is determined by this equation: Vout = Vin x (1 + (R2/R1))
the input Z is basically the value of R1.

So, to have a input Z of 1k, just make R1 = 1k. Then choose a value for R2 that will set the gain as desired. If you want to get a little fancier, R2 could be a pot that would serve as a gain control. You'd just want to make sure that at whatever the pot's maximum resistance is, you won't hit the "rails" of the power supply. Of course, the only way to know this for sure would be to know what the maximum input voltage will be. If you don't have a digital storage oscilloscope to test the mics with, this might be tough to figure out! A safe bet would be to assume that, because this is an electret mic we're talking about, max output will be quite small. At a guess, I'd bet no higher than 1V peak. That means that, if you're using a bipolar power supply (like the +9/-9 from a roadrage board), you could safely have a gain as high as 10 without clipping. At any rate, I'd start with a 10k resistor in R2 and adjust to taste.

Now, since we've got a stereo pair of mics, simply make two of these (you could use both sides of a dual opamp), and attach the "hot" wire from each mic to the inputs.

At this point, I'd probably just tack on a passive tone control and see what you get. Maybe not the big muff one, since the midrange scoop might not work so well with a concertina! I'd follow that passive tone control with another pair of opamp circuits. The first would be a unity gain summing amplifier (both outputs of the preamps go thru matching resistors, then connect to a single opamp + input, and the - input is connected directly to the output. The second would be an adjustable gain amplifier like the the first ones, to make up for any losses from the passive tone control.

So now, we're talking a quad opamp (i.e. TL074), six resistors (one would be a pot for a volume control in the R2 position of the last amp stage), plus whatever the tone circuit requires. OH! and you'll need caps at the inputs to keep DC from leaking around where you don't want it. The finished thing might look something like this: (but I forgot the output cap!)

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 07, 2014 6:52 pm 
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from there, you could go into a compressor, then a DI box, then the mixer.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 07, 2014 9:23 pm 
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My experience with this stuff is probably more limited than Justin's. But I've been messing with some things like this lately. Sometimes, I've found that the low z mics want to see an actual DC voltage, like phantom power but less. For instance, the lr baggs lyric system sends 9 volts to the mic and won't work well without it. If this thing is part of a mic/pre amp packaged system, you might try to check for that. It might be better to eq & boost the signal after the pre amp he already has.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 07, 2014 9:28 pm 
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And sorry about leading you astray on the input impedance. I glossed over the stereo mic thing; was thinking it was a single piezo transducer for some reason.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 07, 2014 9:47 pm 
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Dude, Justin, thanks for putting in the time to think that through and draw it up! I learned a bunch just from reading through it.

Morgan wrote:
t might be better to eq & boost the signal after the pre amp he already has.

Hmm, maybe just rehouse his power supply unit into a stompbox format and put a compressor after it. That was actually my original plan, but it's always more fun to build something custom from scratch, right?

Well I have a lot to think about now either way. Thanks again for your …input!

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 08, 2014 6:09 am 
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Ah, yes - I didn't mention a solution to provide phantom power for the mics. Good catch there!

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 17, 2015 3:41 pm 
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Here's a report of what I've found with some testing (and general decision making based on a realistic look at my available time for this project):

1. I think it makes the most sense to rehouse the existing preamp and build around it. I just don't have time to figure out the right "roll your own" solution.

2. In testing with a regular old EQ pedal in the chain, we found, much to my surprise, that it's actually the low frequencies that are most problematic. By completely burying the 200Hz and 400Hz faders, we eliminated almost all the noise from clicking the buttons and squeezing the bellows.

3. Putting an optical compressor after the EQ, we were able to contain most of the stabby, piercing tones that come from even sight imprecisions in playing technique, and we actually ended up with something quite useable!

So right now my thought is: use one enclosure. Rehouse the existing preamp, then send it through some circuitry that cuts out those low frequencies, then into an optical compressor.

Remaining problems that maybe you guys have thoughts on:

1. What's the best way to cut those lows? TH Customs sells a PCB to build a fully customizable 5-band EQ (see here), which might be overkill, but would get the job done. (I'd probably use internal trimpots and the 'set it and forget it' approach.) But maybe I should just build something custom that cuts 400Hz and below and make the whole thing switchable. I definitely don't need all 5 bands.

2. Gotta figure out how to separate the volume pot from the on/off functionality. I imagine a closer look at the way it's wired now would be enough for me to figure out what to do, but if anyone has used these on/off pots before and can show me a diagram, that'd eliminate one question mark.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 19, 2015 8:38 pm 
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A 1.8k resistor and a 0.22uF cap would make a dead-simple passive hi-pass filter to roll off your low end at 400Hz. Just drop it in before the amplifier portion of the circuit and be prepared to lose a little gain.

http://www.muzique.com/schem/filter.htm

It would be pretty straightforward to put it on a bypass switch... hell, it's just two components, you could mount them ON the switch!

Or you could get "fancy" and use a dual opamp to split the signal, route one half thru the filter, then blend the dry and filtered signals with a pot (wet to lug 1, dry to lug 3, output from 2). The second opamp "channel" could be used as a volume recovery for the passive filter before it hits the pot. Using a trim pot for the gain of the recovery amp stage would let you dial it in so the levels of filtered and dry are the same - or trim as needed to adjust the "feel" of the roll-off knob. The downside of this is that you might have some phase-alignment issues. This might not be noticeable, or it might sound weird... only one way to find out!

Alternately, if you're already playing with opamps, you could download the free filter design tool from TI and make a Sallen-Key filter with an opamp. This would allow you to adjust how dramatic you want that roll-off to be. I attached a sample using 1% resistors and 10% caps for reference. Just stick your roll-off bypass toggle (DPDT) in line with the output and wire it up like a true-bypass circuit.

http://www.ti.com/tool/filterpro&DCMP=h ... lterpro-ca

As for the switching volume pot, just replace with a (non-switching) pot of the same value, and move the switching wires to a separate toggle.

edit: forgot the attachment! It's a sample in the TI filterpro format.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 25, 2015 11:56 am 
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CaptainPeyote wrote:
A 1.8k resistor and a 0.22uF cap would make a dead-simple passive hi-pass filter to roll off your low end at 400Hz. Just drop it in before the amplifier portion of the circuit and be prepared to lose a little gain.

http://www.muzique.com/schem/filter.htm

It would be pretty straightforward to put it on a bypass switch... hell, it's just two components, you could mount them ON the switch!

Awesome, thanks for this—just what I need. Check my work on putting it on the switch. Would I put the capacitor across from 2 – 4, and run the resistor from 4 – 3?

Image Image

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 25, 2015 5:39 pm 
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sjaustin wrote:
Awesome, thanks for this—just what I need. Check my work on putting it on the switch. Would I put the capacitor across from 2 – 4, and run the resistor from 4 – 3?

Image Image

No. If you want the filter before the circuit, you would put the cap between lug 2 and the pcb input, and put the resistor from the PCB input to ground or lug 3 of the switch. You want the filter in series with the circuit. Putting it across the pcb input and output would put it in parallel and cause all sorts of weirdness.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 25, 2015 7:44 pm 
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Morgan wrote:
No. If you want the filter before the circuit, you would put the cap between lug 2 and the pcb input, and put the resistor from the PCB input to ground or lug 3 of the switch. You want the filter in series with the circuit. Putting it across the pcb input and output would put it in parallel and cause all sorts of weirdness.

Sorry, wasn't clear in how I said it—that image was probably not helpful either because the high pass filter circuit isn't on a PCB. My thinking is the high pass filter is all on the switch, separate from the rest of the effect, so the "PCB" (blue lines in the first image) is the high pass circuit, true bypass switched between the master bypass and the preamp. So:

Input jack (via master bypass 3PDT) > lug 1 of the DPDT > high pass filter (between 2 and 4, grounded at lug 3 or somewhere else) > out from lug 5 to the preamp PCB input > preamp PCB out > compressor PCB in > compressor PCB out > output jack (via master bypass 3PDT).

Does that make more sense? Or am I still wrong? I thought I had it making sense, but now I'm not so sure. :)

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